*Best of DTB #174* Alleged idolatry show notes

Posted by John Benko - April 21st, 2012



Alleged Idolatry


Exodus 20:16 Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbor.

These show notes correspond to this blog talk radio show
Opening audio clip.

The show notes to this debate are at http://tinyurl.com/7x7punu. Email as at email@deepertruthblog.com with comments or questions.
In the previous 6 debates with George Lujack, we have held our show notes close to the vest until broadcast time.

However, for this debate, we are putting all our cards on the table well in advance.. All materials were published days before this debate and even made available to our opponent himself. In short, we are telling George exactly where we are going to run and daring him try to counter it.

Since day 1, he has unabashedly claimed that the Catholic Church worships and idolizes Mary as a goddess. Those are not my words, they are his. The assertion is absurd and, in making it, he reduces his own credibility to zero and appears much more a desperate, irrational polemicist than a serious debater. In short, George is breaking the commandment of God by bearing false witness against his Catholic neighbors. It really is just that simple.

I will come right out and say openly that it is my view that George doesn’t believe this foolish nonsense any more than I do and that he probably understands that no Catholic will ever really take him seriously as long as he spouts such mush.

On the chance that George really does believe that Catholics worship Mary and the Saints, the Pope, Statues and Leprechauns as assorted Idols and gods and goddesses, he will be afforded every generous opportunity to prove it. He will also be pressed hard to put up or shut up on this ridiculous charge.

So, here and now, I will not set any burden of proof to be met, I will only explain in detail the bar George has set for himself, with his own words, and then I will sip coffee while his own nutty polemic comes crashing down on his own head.

Remember, I will do nothing here but use George’s own ridiculous assertions against him. That he is hoisted by his own petard, don’t blame me.

First, we will start with a vocabulary lesson, starting with the word worship.

wor·ship

[wur-ship] Show IPA noun, verb, wor·shiped, wor·ship·ing or ( especially British ) wor·shipped, wor·ship·ping.

noun
1.
reverent honor and homage paid to God or a sacred personage, or to any object regarded as sacred.
2.
formal or ceremonious rendering of such honor and homage: They attended worship this morning.
3.
adoring reverence or regard: excessive worship of business success.
4.
the object of adoring reverence or regard.
5.
( initial capital letter ) British . a title of honor used in addressing or mentioning certain magistrates and others of high rank or station (usually preceded by Your, His, or Her ).

When I speak of Worship, I am holding to the first and second definitions because they are literal and I am not British. Catholics hold this worship as due God alone. George, therefore, must prove that Catholics view Mary as Divine, since He has already claimed that.

The British use, often extracted from the Catholic encyclopedia, is of no value here because I speak American English and so does George, referring to a Judge as your honor, not your worship as our British counterparts do. Attempting to juxtapose British English on me would be dishonest to the extreme. I hope he doesn’t even try it.

Secondly, Idol.

i·dol

[ahyd-l] Show IPA

noun

1.
an image or other material object representing a deity to which religious worship is addressed.
2.
Bible .
a.
an image of a deity other than God.
b.
the deity itself.
3.
any person or thing regarded with blind admiration, adoration, or devotion: Madame Curie had been her childhood idol.
4.
a mere image or semblance of something, visible but without substance, as a phantom.
5.
a figment of the mind; fantasy.

Once again, George has already shown his hand. Therefore, he must prove that Catholics view Mary as a material Diety, worthy of worship. Not a pure human. He must prove that we hold her to be a goddess.

Thirdly, goddess.

god·dess

[god-is] Show IPA

noun
1.
a female god or deity.
2.
a woman of extraordinary beauty and charm.
3.
a greatly admired or adored woman.

Since definitions 2 and 3 are of slang and hyperbolic use, George must prove definition #1. A LITERAL female god.

If George can prove that we hold Mary to be a Divine being, possessing the attributes of Divinity, he wins. To do this, he must show that Catholics hold her to be eternal, omniscient, omnipresent and omnipotent. That means she is uncreated and has no limits to her knowledge, presence and power.

Also, since the Bible itself shows that worship requires a sacrifice, please show where Catholics offer Sacrifices to Mary. One of the proof-texts he will obviously use is Jeremiah 44, referring to the cult of Ishtar, the so-called Queen of Heaven. This is wonderful. I look forward, with great eagerness, for George to demonstrate how Catholics gather wood for fires, offering cake and drink libation sacrifices to Mary. As if!

Produce one Encyclical, Council document or verse from the catechism that shows that, as a Catholic, I am to Adore and Worship Mary as a Divine being, that I am to offer sacrifices to her and raise her to equality with God.

Do all this, or concede the argument up front.

Since George has already stated that Catholics have adored, idolitrized and worshiped Mary as a goddess, he cannot even assert unintentional worship, as if that were possible.

We opened this show with audio of clips of George’s own words and the show notes begin with a screenshot of George claiming in facebook that he can prove Catholics make Mary a goddess.. By his own words he is condemned. He has painted himself into this corner and was very foolish to do so.

Accusing Catholics of worshiping Mary and the Saints is among the ugliest slander and vitriolic, gutter polemics. It is usually offered in 2 equally absurd variations-

  1. That Catholics somehow unintentionally or unknowingly worship Mary, the saints etc.
  2. That Catholics openly consent to the worship of Mary, the saints etc., then lie about doing so.

Both are equally absurd. The first is impossible and illogical, as worship requires assent to Divinity. It is beyond the worst perversion of the definition of worship to suggest that it is something that can occur without the full consent of the mind, heart, body and soul. In short, version number one is flat-out impossible. The second version is even worse because it accuses Catholics, falsely, of two mortal sins- Idolatry and false witness.

At least the first can be excused as ignorance.

George openly accuses Catholics of elevating Mary and the saints to the level of gods. In doing so, he mortally wounds any possible chance of meeting his own burden of proof.

By the standard George has set, he must prove that Catholics;

  1. Fully consent, mind, body, heart and soul, to the elevation of Mary and other saints to the level of diety.
  2. Fully consent to the deception of said worship

Not only are both of these assertion ludicrous, they are even less ludicrous than the claim that he can prove them true. In other words, George is claiming he can prove what Catholics think and that they all lie about thinking it!

George would have to be mentally unstable to truly believe he can demonstrate this, so I have to assume he is just blinded by irrational, anti-catholic hate. No other explanation makes sense.

In view of this, George cannot offer anything in his opening statement- or any of his arguments- that will be even remotely credible….

….with the possible exception of an apology for breaking one of the ten commandments and smearing his neighbors.

Briefly, I’ll address the points George will surely make in the desperate attempt to buttress this disgusting slander. He will start by accusing us of violating the second commandment (which is actually part of the first) in making unto ourselves graven images of worship. As if! Remember that the Israelites consented to the worship of the golden calf and other false gods.

God’s word from Exodus 32;


8 They have turned aside quickly out of the way that I commanded them. They have made for themselves a golden calf and have worshiped it and sacrificed to it and said, ‘These are your gods, O Israel, who brought you up out of the land of Egypt!’”

I have a small statuette I won, of the Holy family. I can assure you that it is made of plaster and should I be unfortunate enough to drop it, it will probably break. I have never once prostrated myself before it, nor have I offered sacrifices to it. It is no more a god to me than the statues of angels Moses made, at God’s command, in the Temple and on the Ark of the Covenant. It does not possess any of the attributes of humanity much less divinity.

Next, he will assert that prayer is worship. Hogwash. To pray means to ask, nothing more. nowhere in the Bible is prayer called worship. This is indefensible nonsense.

Quoting his own King James Bible, 1st Kings, chapter 2;

16 And now I ask one petition of thee, deny me not. And she said unto him, Say on.
17 And he said, Speak, I pray thee, unto Solomon the king, (for he will not say thee nay,) that he give me Abishag the Shunammite to wife.
18 And Bathsheba said, Well; I will speak for thee unto the king.
19 Bathsheba therefore went unto king Solomon, to speak unto him for Adonijah. And the king rose up to meet her, and bowed himself unto her, and sat down on his throne, and caused a seat to be set for the king’s mother; and
she sat on his right hand.
20 Then she said, I desire one small petition of thee; I pray thee, say me not nay. And the king said unto her, Ask on, my mother: for I will not say thee nay.

In this instance, prayer is not called worship. Nor is prayer called worship in any of the 188 instances of the word worship in the King James Bible.

Not only do Adonijah and Bathsheba both use the word pray as what it means- to petition- but the King- Solomon- actually gives a bow of respect to his mother, the Queen Mother and places her on a throne to his right.

Luke chapter 1 tells us that Jesus Christ is the fulfillment of the Davidic Kingdom. This makes Mary the Queen Mother, not as a goddess, but as her rightful position in the King’s court. To deny this is to deny scripture.

Following this, George will doubtless assert that the Angels and Saints cannot hear our prayers. This, once again, is a direct contradiction to Scripture. In the book of Revelation we see both Angels and Saints receiving our prayers and passing them on to God…. Angels in chapter 8, Saints in chapter 5.

I am positive George will quote Colossians 2 regarding the worship of angels, trying to make a hallow juxtaposition against Catholics. He will offer nothing but implication linking this to Catholics.

Yet, if you are still convinced that those in heaven cannot hear petitions, consider this exchange straight from the 16th chapter of Luke’s gospel;

23And in hades lifting up his eyes, being in torments, he sees Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. 24And he crying out said, Father Abraham, have compassion on me, and send Lazarus that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, for I am suffering in this flame. 25But Abraham said, Child, recollect that *thou* hast fully received thy good things in thy lifetime, and likewise Lazarus evil things. But now he is comforted here, and *thou* art in suffering.

The accusation that Catholics worship Mary, or anyone else but God Almighty is not merely false but the worst kind of polemic garbage and bile. To even attempt to make it plausible requires George and those of like mind to invent a definition of worship wholly alien to the Bible.

  1. Prove to me that you worship Christ. List for me all the things one must believe about the person of Jesus to properly be called a worshiper of Him. Then, using the same standard, prove that I am a worshiper of Mary.
  2. Each time I, as a Catholic, pray the “Hail Mary”, I echo the words of Scripture “Blessed are you among women”. Here, I expressly assent to her humanity and that she is blessed no further than that. Further, I ask her to pray for me. If I saw Mary as a goddess, please explain why I would call her human and ask her to pray for me.
  3. George, you claim that prayer equals worship, yet not one of the 188 appearances of the word worship in the King James Bible say such a thing. In fact, the word pray appears twice in 1st Kings Chapter 2 in a way expressly showing non-worshipful petition. How is it that you can insist on a definition of worship that has no Biblical support whatsoever?
  4. Revelation 11:19 to 12:17 shows a woman who is called the Ark of the Covenant, who is in heaven, who has a physical body, who has a crown on her head, showing queen-ship, who gave birth to the child called up to God’s throne who is to rule all nations with a rod of iron, who is the mother of all Christians. This is not what I say, this is what the Bible says. Who else could this woman possibly be other than Mary?
  5. The Queen Mother (1 Kings 15:13, 2 Chronicles 15:16, Jeremiah 13:18, 22:10, 29:2 ) was the mother of the King in the davidic kingdom. Luke 1:32 tells us that Jesus fulfills the throne of the Kingdom of David. Under this Kingdom, Mary IS the Queen Mother. How can you seriously deny this?



Here are some points that I think are likely to be raised during the course of this debate. The argument will be in BLUE with my Response in GOLD.

Argument: If Catholics do not worship Mary, why do they call her Theotokos- the Mother of God? Is this not putting her above God?

Answer: Not at all. To call Mary the Mother of God is only to confirm what Scripture says about her. Elizabeth, in Luke 1 says what is it to me that the Mother of My Lord should come to me. ‘My Lord’ is translated from the Greek Kyrios which is equivalent to the Hebrew Adonai, a name used for God. To call Mary the Mother of God, is simply confirming the Biblical reality that is the Incarnation.
It is a simple logical syllogism. Jesus is God, Mary is His Mother, therefore, Mary is the Mother of God.

Argument: Catholics call Mary a co-redemtrix and co-mediatrix. The Bible clearly says that there is only one mediator between God and man. Are you not elevating Mary to the level of God?

Answer: You are comparing apples to oranges. A Redeemer and a co-redemptrix are two totally different things. Likewise, a co-mediatrix and a mediator between God and Man are not even close to the same thing.

The key word is ‘co’ which means ‘with’, not ‘equal’. In calling Mary a co-redemtrix and co-mediatrix, the Catholic church is simply affirming a fundamental reality- that Mary co-operated with the plan of redemption by bring Jesus to us.

Argument: Catholics claim that Mary has appeared all over the world. At Fatima, Catholics claim that Mary said: The soul which recommends itself to Me by the recitation of the Rosary, shall not perish. Isn’t this elevating Mary to a level of Savior?

Answer: First of all, no Catholic is bound to believing in private revelations. However, Jesus did say that there would be signs by which many would believe and the documented miraculous events at places like Lourdes and Fatima are undeniable. At the heart of Mary’s statement- properly context-ed, is one of the most fundamental divisions between Catholics and Protestants, the notion of intercessory prayer. Yet, Mary never claims to be a Savior, she claims to be an Advocate. In the Rosary are the Apostles Creed and the Our Father as well as the Hail Mary. Mary’s entire message at Fatima is one of prayer, fasting and penance and returning to her Son. Mary is offering her assistance in leading souls to her son. Her messages at these events always point to Jesus. True, one may reject these events as inauthentic if they so chose but to call them worship is quite a stretch. 

Argument: Doesn’t the Bible warn against believing signs and wonders?
Revelation 13:  11: Then I saw another beast which rose out of the earth; it had two horns like a lamb and it spoke like a dragon.

12: It exercises all the authority of the first beast in its presence, and makes the earth and its
 inhabitants worship the first beast, whose mortal wound was healed. 
13: It works great signs, even making fire come down from heaven to earth in the sight of men;

14: and by the signs which it is allowed to work in the presence of the beast, it deceives those who dwell on earth, bidding them make an image for the beast which was wounded by the sword and yet lived;

Answer: Signs and wonders are not at all what is being condemned here, unbelief and apostasy are what is being condemned.

Let’s take the quotes one by one. The quote in Matthew 16 did not mean Jesus didn’t perform any signs  in the Gospels, we know better than that. In fact, just 5 verses later, Jesus reminds the disciples of the miracle of the fish and loaves. Jesus did not condemn the signs themselves, he condemned the evil and adulterous pharisees who sought to put him to the test because of their lack of belief.

In 2 Corinthians, we are warned that Satan disguises himself as a being of light. There would be no need for him to do this if it were not for the fact that actual beings of light have appeared to people. 

It is the same with the proof text from Revelation 13 . When the anti-christ brings fire down from heaven, he is merely doing a cheap imitation of what Elijah did in 2 Kings.

It is nonsense to suggest that the Bible tells us to unilaterally reject all miracles. Both the Prophet Joel and Peter told us that in the last days young men would see visions and old men would dream dreams. The key is knowing how to discern.

1 John 4 
1 Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world. 2 By this you know the Spirit of God : every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God ; 3 and every spirit that does not confess Jesus is not from God ; this is the spirit of the antichrist
It may well be noted that every approved apparition of Mary passes this Biblical test.

Often used as a gotcha claim that Catholics worship Mary, anti-catholics sometimes quote the catholic Encyclopedia using the British use of the word worship. Even when they do so, the full context proves them wrong. Also, isn’t it ironic that proponents of the King James Bible would try and impose the Saxon dialect on us?

The word worship (Saxon weorthscipe, “honour”; from worth, meaning “value”, “dignity”, “price”, and the termination, ship; Latin cultus) in its most general sense is homage paid to a person or a thing. In this sense we may speak of hero-worship, worship of the emperor, of demons, of the angels, even of relics, and especially of the Cross. This article will deal with Christian worship according to the following definition: homage paid to God, to Jesus Christ, to His saints, to the beings or even to the objects which have a special relation to God.
There are several degrees of this worship:
  • if it is addressed directly to God, it is superior, absolute, supreme worship, or worship of adoration, or, according to the consecrated theological term, a worship of latria. This sovereign worship is due to God alone; addressed to a creature it would become idolatry.
  • When worship is addressed only indirectly to God, that is, when its object is the veneration of martyrs, of angels, or of saints, it is a subordinate worship dependent on the first, and relative, in so far as it honours the creatures of God for their peculiar relations with Him; it is designated by theologians as the worship of dulia, a term denoting servitude, and implying, when used to signify our worship of distinguished servants of God, that their service to Him is their title to our veneration (cf. Chollet, loc. cit., col. 2407, and Bouquillon, Tractatus de virtute religionis, I, Bruges, 1880, 22 sq.).
  • As the Blessed Virgin has a separate and absolutely supereminent rank among the saints, the worship paid to her is called hyperdulia (for the meaning and history of these terms see Suicer, Thesaurus ecclesiasticus, 1728).


The show notes to this debate are at http://tinyurl.com/7x7punu. Email as at email@deepertruthblog.com with comments or questions.

At the end of this debate, there is no change from the beginning. The basic assertion, that Catholics worship or idolatrize Mary, Angels, saints is unsupported and unsupportable. Nothing more need be said on the matter. If George had merely stated that prayer and devotion to Mary and the Saints constituted material worship, or confined his line of attack to the appropriateness of icons or prayers, or even Mary’s rightful place in the plan of salvation, we would have much to discuss. He would have still lost, but t would have been a contest.

However, when George actually accuses me of fashioning Mary into a goddess, I can truly do nothing but roll my eyes and go on to the next topic. This is one debate our opponent simply made too easy for us, by grossly overreaching on his assertion.

This accusation is not merely false but is nothing more than bitter, hyper-polemic drivel. The Mary goddess canard is the invention of rabid anti-Catholics with over-active imaginations and too much time on their hands. There has never been any evidence produced whatsoever to support such idiot, paranoid nonsense.

George is too obsessed with paganism, druidism and babylonianism, none of which have anything to do with Catholicism whatsoever. George’s entire case is a supposition, inside a juxtaposition, wrapped around a paranoid, conspiratorial fabrication.

As a Catholic, I could not give two flips if the Babylonians had a goddess, two goddesses or two legions of goddesses and 47 hobgoblins with snakes in their hair. That has squat to do with me and his lame assertions to the contrary are so much hyperventilated smoke. In short, if George truly believes that I worship Mary as a goddess then what can I say but that I feel sorry for him?

This is exactly the kind of irrational lack of charity that causes divisions rather than heal them because George wants to believe the lie…he needs to believe the lie. It is not enough that he believe that Catholics are wrong, he needs to believe they are evil and that is really a shame.

It is that irrational hatred that made this debate so easy because it caused George to lose his center and strike out irrationally.

The accusation that Catholics worship Mary is false, irrational polemics based in nothing but hate. It is an anti-catholic invention totally lacking in any substance or logic and George should be ashamed of himself for suggesting something so asinine. As far as debate goes, I hope George has learned a valuable lesson. He spent all his credibility capital right here by claiming he could prove about me what no man could possibly prove about another… what I believe.

I hope he will be more rational going forward, he really went off the reservation this time.


Opening Statement: ‘Alleged’ Idolatry of the Catholic Church 04/26/2012 by George Lujack Alleged idolatry of the Catholic Church? Alleged? Really? Saying that there is alleged adultery in the Catholic Church is like saying there is alleged prostitution going on in a brothel. Idolatry is what the Catholic Church is all about. Idolatry is what keeps Catholics faithful to their church, when all logic and reason should alert them to flee from this unbiblical and corrupt organization. Idolatry of the Catholic Church would include the idolatrous history of the Catholic Church (that would include actual history and false revisionist history), idolatry of the grand Cathedrals they build, and of course idolatry of their art and graven images that the Catholic Church makes, honors, reveres, adores and worships. Whether they realize it or not, practicing Catholics are idolaters in one form or another. Catholics are idolaters if they own and revere statues of Christ, Mary, saints or any other figure that they pray through or to. Catholics worship false gods if they pray to or attribute powers to saints – powers that are only manifested by God. Therefore, when Catholics pray before a statue of Christ, Mary, or pray the rosary, or bow before images of other dead Christian saints, and expect Mary or these other dead saints to answer their prayers, or intercede on their behalf before God, these Catholics are breaking the 1st and 2nd Commandments simultaneously. They are attributing powers reserved for God, prayer and answers to prayer, to dead saints. Therefore, Catholics are breaking God’s Command to not have other gods, as ONLY He is God. Catholics also disobey God by having graven images of God, Mary and of other saints that they worship as demigods. Catholics that use graven images as a vehicle or medium to ‘better’ communicate with God, should heed the warning given by God for not listening to Him or His commandments, in this case the commandment forbidding the use of graven images… PROVERBS 28:9: He that turns away his ear from hearing the law, even his prayer shall be abomination. Catholics like to re-define what worship is, in order to justify having their graven image statues, bowing before them and serving them. In Acts chapter 10, we see the righteous Roman centurion Cornelius merely bowing before Peter, and Scripture defines this “falling down to his feet” bowing before Peter as an act of worship. ACTS 10:25-26: As Peter was coming in, Cornelius met him and fell down at his feet and worshiped him. But Peter lifted him up, saying, “Stand up; I myself am also a man.” How is it then that Catholics can say with a straight face that when they have and maintain graven images, bow before these graven images and pray to and/or through theses graven images, that they are not engaged in worshiping graven images and false demigods? Scripture defined Cornelius for falling at his feet before Peter as – an act of worship. Peter admonished Cornelius and told him not to do such a thing, for he only was a man. Can you imagine what Peter would say if he saw Catholics throughout the centuries making, bowing and praying before statues made of Him? What would Peter say if he could speak today to Catholics who make statues of him and pray to him through those statues? I assure you, If Peter saw such things he would say to Catholics today as he once said to Cornelius, “Stand up; I myself am also a man.” Peter would also tell Catholics to not pray to him, for he is a man and as such, cannot hear nor answer prayer. Only God should be prayed to and only God can hear and answer prayer. The Catholic 10-Commandments are not the same 10-Commandments of Judaism and Christianity. They have altered the word of God, the 10-Commandments written with the finger of God, and have deleted the 2nd Commandment forbidding graven images. The 2nd command was obvious deleted from the 10-Commandments by Catholicism, so that they could break the 2nd commandment. In order to keep the Commandments numbered at ten, they split the 10th Commandment against coveting, into the 9th and 10th commandments, which they list as coveting a neighbor’s wife as the 9th Commandment and coveting a neighbor’s property as the 10th Commandment. EXODUS 20:4-5: You shall not make for yourself a carved image—any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; you shall not bow down to them nor serve them. EXODUS 20:23: You shall not make anything to be with Me—gods of silver or gods of gold you shall not make for yourselves. Since it is IMPOSSIBLE for man to make an actual god, the commandment against making gods refers to making a representative or graven image of God – used to worship God, or the making of false gods, gods that are created by man. Making a representative of God was the justification the Hebrews used after their Exodus from Egypt. Many of the Hebrews that made the golden calf, knew it was wrong to do so, and they had not yet been given the 10-Commandments. The Hebrews wanted a god to go before them, just as Catholics want their graven idols today to go before them, to be with them and comfort them. Exodus 20:4 proclaims that it is not merely a sin to bow down to an idol, it is a sin to make one, or own one, or worship in a church before one. God is a jealous God, and He will not share His glory or allow images and worship to be conducted through the work of craftsmen. Cursed is the man who makes a graven or molten image and sets it up, such as they do throughout the Catholic Churches (Deuteronomy 27:15). Catholics who make, own, pray before, serve, honor and worship graven images are often in denial that they are doing anything wrong. Unfortunately, they often cede their logical mind and obedience to God and lay it at the alter of their Catholic Church, falsely believing that the Catholic Church is the authority on such matters, and not the everlasting word of God. Closing Statement It is in truth and spirit that we should worship and honor God. God is the author of truth and Scripture is His manual. Man does not get to choose and worship God in a manner of his choosing. God is sovereign and it is He who commands us how we should worship Him. Prayer is defined as: A solemn request, request for help, reverent petition, expression of thanks made to God, a god, or another object of worship When Catholics pray to Mary, or the saints, they give them an attribute that belongs to God and they make Mary into a goddess and the saints demigods. The Catholic Church, since it’s foundation, had absolutely no intention of worshiping God in spirit and in truth, but instead through idolatry and deception, false doctrines and Babylonian tradition. God does not want, nor will He accept worship through the use of graven images, nor through the false doctrines of the Catholic Church that have promulgated the making and wide distribution of statues. God does not permit the worship of saints that have been set up through the Catholic Church, in the tradition of paganism’s polytheism, in the role of tin demigods. Mary and all the Christian saints are dead in their graves, awaiting their resurrection upon the return of Christ, as plainly stated in 1 Corinthians 15:53. The dead will rise from their graves to be with the Lord at the last trumpet, something they cannot do if they are already with the Lord in heaven. The use of false-god graven image idols within the Catholic Church and by the Catholic faithful, has inevitably lead to alleged moving images and weeping and bleeding statues. God would never use a graven image to work a miracle through. Deceived Catholics believe in many of these false miracles and lying wonders attributed to these statues, as disobedience in breaking God’s 2nd Commandment can only bring forth bad fruit and unrighteousness. Further signs and lying wonders will usher in the wicked one, as Scripture foretells… 2 THESSALONIANS 2:9-12: Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and LYING WONDERS, And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

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*BEST OF DTB #117* Saints and Angels and Relics and Statues- Vehicles of Biblical Worship, not objects of Idolotry

Posted by John Benko - December 16th, 2011

The Catholic Encyclopedia gives what I feel to be a needlessly confusing explanation of the veneration or honor of Saints and Angels and Relics and Statues;

There are several degrees of this worship:
if it is addressed directly to God, it is superior, absolute, supreme worship, or worship of adoration, or, according to the consecrated theological term, a worship of latria. This sovereign worship is due to God alone; addressed to a creature it would become idolatry.
When worship is addressed only indirectly to God, that is, when its object is the veneration of martyrs, of angels, or of saints, it is a subordinate worship dependent on the first, and relative, in so far as it honours the creatures of God for their peculiar relations with Him; it is designated by theologians as the worship of dulia , a term denoting servitude, and implying, when used to signify our worship of distinguished servants of God, that their service to Him is their title to our veneration (cf. Chollet, loc. cit., col. 2407, and Bouquillon, Tractatus de virtute religionis , I, Bruges, 1880, 22 sq.).

As the Blessed Virgin has a separate and absolutely supereminent rank among the saints, the worship paid to her is called hyperdulia (for the meaning and history of these terms see Suicer, Thesaurus ecclesiasticus , 1728).
In accordance with these principles it will readily be understood that a certain worship may be offered even to inanimate objects, such as the relics of a
martyr, the Cross of Christ, the Crown of Thorns, or even the statue or picture
of a saint. There is here no confusion or danger of idolatry, for this worship
is subordinate or dependent. The relic of the saint is venerated because of the
link which unites it with the
person who is adored or venerated ; while the statue or picture is regarded as having a conventional relation to a person who has
a
right to our homage — as being a symbol which reminds us of that person

This explanation makes me cringe. Not because it isn’t correct (it is), not because it conflicts with what we have been saying (it doesn’t). It makes me cringe because it explains this doctrine in such an utterly (and in my opinion, unnecessarily) confusing manner that we could truly blame no one for misinterpreting it. To me, doctrines should be explained in ways that eliminate confusion rather than add to it.

To that end, tonight’s show will explain why this citation is not saying that we worship Mary, the Angels, the Saints etc. even though it-admittedly- seems to be.

Let’s start by pointing out that the article specifically states that it is rendering the word worship by the Anglo-saxon (that is British) definition, a definition quite different than our own.
It so happens that in British English and American English the meaning of the words honor and worship are reversed. A judge in America would be called your honor while one in Great Britain (a predominantly protestant country btw) is called your worship. So, if you are going to claim that Catholics worship Mary and the Saints, according to the American definition, to attribute divinity to them, then you have to stipulate that people in England consider their judges to be gods.

Further, while our upper legislative chamber is called the Senate, theirs is called the house of lords. Are we to project our understanding on this body too and assume that their legislative branch is filled with a bunch of Jesus-es? Come now. Can we stop being silly?

When reading this article, the distinction is made very clear because both American and British Catholics also refer to what we call worship- the level of honor that denotes Divinity- as Adoration. Adoration is yet another word that has multiple dictionary definitions but the context that we use it in is Worship- something due God alone. We refer to it as Adoration and our Anglo-Saxon brethren have called it Worship of Adoration. It is this adoration that matches exactly what orthodox American Christians mean by Worship and to describe this Adoration or Worship as applying to the honor given Mary, The Saints, the Angels, relics or statues is not only false, it is absurd.

To suggest that Catholics do not understand that Mary was a created being, or that statues are lifeless alabaster casts, is to make the accuser, not the object of his accusation, look foolish.

This is not to say, of course, that God cannot produce miracles through these. Through Mary, God performed the miracle of the Incarnation, just as through Moses, He parted the Red Sea. Through the Apostles, He performed miracles of healings and, through His Divine will, He brought life to Elijah’s bones and voice to Balaam’s Donkey. We as Catholics could add thousands of miracles to these, whereby God worked great signs and wonders through Saints and even through Statues and religious articles.

The point is that no Catholic believes that the Saint performed the Miracle nor did the bones nor the donkey. God performed these signs. Just as Moses had to remove his shoes because God’s presence made the ground before the burning bush holy, and Uzzah was struck dead because God’s presence made the Ark of the covenant holy, so we acknowledge that God’s work, through these people, made them holy. Not Divine, but Holy.

If the magnificence of The Ark of the Covenant or Salomon’s Temple, pointed to the awesomeness of Our God, how much more the magnificent creature that carried His Son in her womb? How could we dare not to give Mary, Christ’s own Mother, the highest honor possible due a creature of God?

By honoring Mary, we are, in fact, worshiping God, Her creator, by any definition of the word. This is what the author clumsily refers to as indirect worship. Even by the British definition of worship, what we call honor, that honor is directed ultimately to God, as we marvel at His work. So, even by the benign British version of worship, we do not worship Mary, The Saints, Angels etc. These creatures are not the object of our honor, God is. These creatures are only a vehicle of honor/worship directed towards God. This is in direct opposition to Idolatry, that which we are falsely accused of.

The first commandment (that which our protestant friends mistakenly call the first two commandments is clear;


Exodus 20
2
“I, the LORD, am your God, who brought you out of
the land of Egypt, that place of slavery.
3 You shall not have other gods besides me.
4 You shall not carve idols for yourselves in the shape
of anything in the sky above or on the earth below or in the
waters beneath the earth;
5 *you shall not bow down before them or worship them.
For I, the LORD, your God, am a jealous God, inflicting
punishment for their fathers’ wickedness on the children of
those who hate me, down to the third and fourth generation;
6 but bestowing mercy down to the thousandth
generation, on the children of those who love me and keep my
commandments.

  1. Mary is not a goddess in Catholicism, nor is any saint a god or goddess, nor any angel, nor any Pope nor any statue. Anyone who tells you otherwise is simply lying.
  2. We do not carve idols unto ourselves. An idol is an object of ascribed Divinity, something that takes the place of God. The statues that we have are no more idols than the statues of Angels that God Himself commanded to me made for the ark of the Covenant and the Temple. These statues remind us of some of God’s most magnificent creations, glorifying Him in that creation.
  3. We do not bow down before them (prostration), nor do we worship them. A bow of the head or a kneel of respect, as Salomon gave his mother in 1 Kings 2, is a far cry from falling at one’s feet and prostrating oneself in worship.

At some point, common sense must enter the equation. Catholics do not worship anyone but The Father, Son and Holy Spirit. Anyone who denies this is wrong. It is just that simple.

Join us tonight at 8:00 PM Eastern.
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