My Response to Jason Hauser

Posted by John Benko - January 23rd, 2014

Jason Hauser, representing the so-called [sic] “Proclaiming the Gospel” ministries responded to my public challenge for a debate with an email. Before I respond, point-by-point, let me jump forward to the very end. Through this entire post, I will block quote what Jason says in blue, then respond.

And no you do not have my permission to post this email or any portion of it online. Your conscience and whether you respect that or not is between you and God. I fear for you and the judgement that awaits you at the great white throne because you have not just rejected the gospel of grace but you are influencing others and have been thoroughly warned… (Reread Galatians 1-2)

First of all, Jason, it is a very small thing to me to be judged by you (1 Corinthians 4:3). I have, indeed, rejected what you falsely characterize as a ‘gospel of grace’ because it is exactly what my savior told me to do. I have rejected what you profess because it is a different gospel than the one clearly shown in Sacred Scripture. The true Gospel is not the Gospel of Grace, it is the Gospel of Jesus Christ. That is, ALL of Jesus Christ- His Grace, yes, but also His Sovereignty, His justice and His church. You seek to replace the Jesus Christ of the Bible, who is Just Judge, High Priest, Lord and Savior and replace Him with one who is Savior only. In our blog, deepertruthblog.com, we have systematically refuted each and every claim made to support your gospel and have upheld the gospel given to us by the Apostles. Thus, your fear for me and your warning to me will be greeted with a yawn and the rolling of my eyes.

As for your permission to post what you said, I do not need it. Any correspondence to deepertruthblog is the property of deepertruthblog. You knew that when you sent it. That you desire to hide in dark corners, lest your evil deeds be exposed, is not my problem. You earn respect by giving respect and I have nothing to be guilty of in exposing your claims and your conduct to proper scrutiny (‘your’ referring to you individually as well as your group collectively). Since you appeared to have sent this response via a private email, I will respect the confidentiality of that, but nothing more. We are going to air all of this out in the open, whether you like it or not. I am not bound to God to protect your right to be a coward and a hatemonger. I will expose you and bear no guilt whatsoever in doing it.

Now, let’s proceed…..

Hi John,

I am not sure exactly who I am speaking with here since I thought the guy who wears the Native American jacket ran the blog. Reread what was quoted on the Deeper Truth Blog to see what I said regarding the jacket. I was not criticizing your partner for his jacket or look, I merely described it as a Native American Jacket just as I did above. Do a google search for “native american jacket” if you think I misspoke in my attempt to describe what he was wearing as a means to identify him.
I will take you at your word that you were not criticizing his style of dress but merely identifying him. I can also understand why you would think of him as the face of Deepertruthblog since he has done the lion’s share of the content of late and is one of two members that reside in Texas. However, when I ended my email with “John Benko, founder of Deepertruthblog”, I should think that would have sufficed in identifying who I am.
Moving on…..
What I find really interesting is how you guys are professing Christians yet, would take a personal conversation of mine to an individual and post it online, attach my name, and criticize it. Read Matthew 18 if you’re not sure what’s wrong with responding to a supposed offense in such a way. If I said something publicly through PTG’s website, broadcast, or any other public forum, by all means, respond to it publicly. However, the way you guys executed this has caused me to lose all confidence and trust in your integrity and reaffirms your lack of adherence to biblical values.
Methinks thou doth protest too much. First of all, I have noticed that your side has a very hair-trigger sort of posture when it comes to condemning people and implying that they are not Christians. Most of the time, (as right here) you do so with the silliest of pretenses. There is nothing in the Bible that would prevent us from responding to your claims and defending ourselves. It is very interesting that you would offer Matthew 18, a chapter that explicitly shows the binding authority and infallibility of the [Catholic] Church, as a pretense
for denying us the right to make public something addressed to us. As for your contention that we should respond through PTG’s website, that is exactly the problem. When you make a public claim and it is countered with truth, your response is to remove the response and block the responder. It is the same motivation that causes you to want these conversations private. That motivation is simply that you know you teach falsehood and you know that falsehood doesn’t stand up to the plain truth of history and the Bible. You want to keep your followers ignorant and your opposition silenced. Well, we are at war here and we are going to fight to lead those souls to heaven just as hard as you are to mislead and confuse them with erroneous, slanderous and heretical claims. It is interesting that “Biblical values” only matter to you when you are attacking Catholics. Trespassing on private property and harassing genuine Christians on Christmas Eve is certainly nothing God would approve of nor is the constant unchecked slander that appears on your site and Facebook page. May I remind you that the Good Book equates slander with murder?
I’ve told Oscar this and I’ll tell you. I’m not interested in Bible study, debates, or investing any other time with your circle of devout Catholics. I’ve engaged with too many strong willed Catholics, Muslims, Jehovah’s Witnesses, and atheists over the years and am not convinced it is a good use of my time.
Well, your abject ignorance of Scripture sure is manifest evidence of your disdain for Bible Study. I do not know who Oscar is but I suppose that is not germaine to the point at hand. Juxtaposing us against Muslims, JWs and Atheists is pretty desperate stuff. None of them- as a group- were formed by the very hands of Jesus Christ, as our church was. None of them wrote the New Testament and compiled the Bible, as our church did. You seem to have plenty of time to attack catholics with your lies but when it comes to backing it up and defending your own position, not so much. That makes you a coward, Jason. You consider yourself a warrior for Christ but you are nothing more than a petulant little boy who throws stones then runs away. We devout Catholics, on the other hand, are not afraid to stand our ground and defend the true gospel against liars like you who seek to malign it. That is why when we call your bluff, your side always backs down. You are cowards because your man-made gospel comes from the greatest coward of all, Satan. If you believe what you supposedly stand for, why are you cowering in the corner? Let’s debate it in the open and let the people who hear it decide who is really proclaiming the gospel and who is proclaiming a false, easy-religion counterfeit.
I love sharing the Gospel with those who are genuinely interested and when the Holy Spirit is clearly at work. I shake the dust off my feet and leave you with a plea to start studying God’s Word and let it speak for itself. This is instead of using it out of context as a proof text for your traditions and teachings of men. You will never know the Gospel, experience the love and forgiveness found in Christ, or find joy purely in Jesus Christ if your motivation for opening God’s Word is as a tool to spar with those who disagree with you.
So now you are both the judge of men’s hearts and of the action of the Holy Spirit? Please, Jason, if you will, show me the chapter and verse where I can see that that authority has been vested in you. You are nothing but a man speaking for yourself so your plea or your dust is cause for nothing but a chuckle on my part. As for your hollow assertion that I use a passage ‘out of context’, you are engaging in the most ironic and amusing projection imaginable. It is precisely that kind of abuse of context that is the basis of your entire false gospel. I have read the whole Bible and I have let it speak for itself and it speaks- quite plainly- in direct opposition to everything you profess. It is you that isolates a verse here, a couple of sentences there (Romans 10:9, 4:1, Ephesians 2:8-9…a few others) to create an entirely new gospel. However, if you would just sit down and take your own advice and read the gospel, you could not make it through the first 25 chapters of Matthew before putting Sola Fide in the garbage can never to be heard from again.
I have read the Bible, sir and that is why I know that what you profess is simply nonsense. The Bible tells us that we will be judged by our deeds- in too many places to count. The Bible tells us that only those who forgive will be forgiven (Luke 6:37), only those who show mercy will be shown mercy (James 2:13) and that only those who persevere to the end will be saved (Matthew 10:22). The Bible, in fact, vindicates every single belief and doctrine Catholics profess but you would rather remain in your willful blindness than engage in that conversation. All the worse for you on judgement day when all the Catholics you have maligned will be raised up as witnesses against you.
If you’d like a debate, contact James White (http://www.aomin.org). I don’t believe he turns down any opportunities for a debate and he’s much smarter and better versed than I am. I’m passionate about sharing the Gospel and giving biblical truth to those who are genuinely listening and interested.
James White is a small and bitter little man and the most pathetic debater I have ever seen. His defense of Sola Scriptura is the very definition of Cognitive Dissonance and his blather about Revelation 17 and 18 has been absolutely disintegrated on our very blog. Nevertheless, my challenge was to you. If James White wants to debate me, I’d be happy to and would eat him alive. That is not the conversation we are having here. I am challenging you to back up your claims and assertions and you are not man enough to do it.
The Proclaiming the Gospel website does not attack anyone. It merely responds to false religions and practices with God’s Word. Your problem is not with such a ministry but rather someone lovingly telling you the truth that you have been deceived by the traditions of men. What you do with such warnings is between you and the Lord. If you reject the warnings given there is nothing more to say to you.
Really? This polemic is on your website right now;
Pope Francis visited a cemetery in Rome last Friday in observance of the Roman Catholic holiday All Saints’ Day to pray for the dead and bless the graves of the departed. He celebrated the blasphemous representation of the Eucharistic Christ during mass and ask the dead saints to pray for those who remain alive. “The saints who stand before the face of the Lord, pray for us, for this our city, and for the whole world, that everywhere the peace of Christ may shine brightly,” he said. “He is our peace and eternal life.”
Now, if characterizing the Eucharist as blasphemous and the Saints as “dead saints” is not an attack, I do not know what would be. This is just one example of the outright hostility and hypocrisy that characterizes your [sic] “ministry”. The Eucharist was instituted by Jesus Himself. Perhaps you didn’t read His own words in John 6. Let me help you with that, since you did point out that we should let God’s word speak for itself;
53 So Jesus said to them, “Very truly, I tell you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you. 54 Those who eat my flesh and drink my blood have eternal life, and I will raise them up on the last day; 55 for my flesh is true food and my blood is true drink. 56 Those who eat my flesh and drink my blood abide in me, and I in them. 57 Just as the living Father sent me, and I live because of the Father, so whoever eats me will live because of me. 58 This is the bread that came down from heaven, not like that which your ancestors ate, and they died. But the one who eats this bread will live forever.”
This is one of those passages that you claim we take out of context as if ‘context’ is a foil you can use to avoid confronting the reality of Scripture. Paul certainly understood what Jesus was saying.
14 Therefore, my dear friends,[c] flee from the worship of idols. 15 I speak as to sensible people; judge for yourselves what I say. 16 The cup of blessing that we bless, is it not a sharing in the blood of Christ? The bread that we break, is it not a sharing in the body of Christ? 17 Because there is one bread, we who are many are one body, for we all partake of the one bread. 18 Consider the people of Israel;[d] are not those who eat the sacrifices partners in the altar? 19 What do I imply then? That food sacrificed to idols is anything, or that an idol is anything? 20 No, I imply that what pagans sacrifice, they sacrifice to demons and not to God. I do not want you to be partners with demons. 21 You cannot drink the cup of the Lord and the cup of demons. You cannot partake of the table of the Lord and the table of demons. 22 Or are we provoking the Lord to jealousy? Are we stronger than he? (1 Corinthians 10)
27 Whoever, therefore, eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be answerable for the body and blood of the Lord. 28 Examine yourselves, and only then eat of the bread and drink of the cup. 29 For all who eat and drink[h] without discerning the body,[i] eat and drink judgment against themselves. (1 Corinthians 11)
Are not Paul’s letters to the church at Corinth Scripture? Did John not record our savior’s words correctly? Here is where all your bitter anti-Catholic polemics disintegrate into dust. Here is where you, Jason, are hoisted by your own petard. There is one reason only why you refuse to debate me. It is because you know that I will confront you with proof texts like 1 Corinthians 11:27-29 and you will be convicted by them and defenseless against them. Any plea to ‘context’ will be instantly recognized for it’s desperation. The text, as you yourself pointed out, speaks for itself. Jesus plainly says that the bread and cup are His body and blood and we are to receive it as such. Paul says- just as clearly- that to deny the reality of transubstantiation is to damn yourself! I do not need my judgment to know that you are tinkering on the razor’s edge of hell by your blasphemy and intransigence. Here, God’s very inspired Word spells it out with frightening clarity.
The same is true of your characterization of the Saints as ‘dead saints’. The Sadducees tried that one too.

27 Some Sadducees, those who say there is no resurrection, came to him 28 and asked him a question, “Teacher, Moses wrote for us that if a man’s brother dies, leaving a wife but no children, the man[b] shall marry the widow and raise up children for his brother. 29 Now there were seven brothers; the first married, and died childless; 30 then the second 31 and the third married her, and so in the same way all seven died childless. 32 Finally the woman also died. 33 In the resurrection, therefore, whose wife will the woman be? For the seven had married her.”

34 Jesus said to them, “Those who belong to this age marry and are given in marriage; 35 but those who are considered worthy of a place in that age and in the resurrection from the dead neither marry nor are given in marriage. 36 Indeed they cannot die anymore, because they are like angels and are children of God, being children of the resurrection. 37 And the fact that the dead are raised Moses himself showed, in the story about the bush, where he speaks of the Lord as the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob. 38 Now he is God not of the dead, but of the living; for to him all of them are alive.” (Luke 20)

The debate has occurred and you- and your anti-Christian doctrines have been soundly and unassailably defeated.
Here are a few articles that might be of interest that I would encourage you to read. Feel free to respond to this author publicly if you feel he is in error.
Since you were too much of a coward to confront the evidence I presented, I see no obligation to be handed off to a third party. You have now been presented the truth. I have proven that “proclaiming the gospel” is a false ministry that would be far more approprietly called “denying the gospel”. If you decide to man-up and confront the evidence I have presented here in an open and honorable way, that invitation stands open. On any doctrine, we will use the proof of Scripture and history to disprove your anti-Christian position and vindicate our genuinely Christian position. If you continue to operate in the shadows, you concede your own defeat and we are done here. I will pray for all of you that God removes the scales from your eyes before you go to your own place as Judas (and Luther and Calvin) did.
 

The Catholic Defender: Contending For The Faith

Posted by John Benko - June 14th, 2013

The following is a debate that took place today on my Facebook page and I thought it was worth sharing.  I remove the last name of Skip purposely to protect his identity.  Skip is the anti-Catholic.

Skip And Don, I love you brother but I am not going to argue a truth on the radio. i am not about such things, I know you are and always have been. When you find that arguing is not the way of God, and that defending a church and setting all your eggs in the Catholic basket instead of with Jesus Christ then we can talk. Until then you are just making noise. Know Christ and make him known.

Donald Hartley Not at all, of the Pope, Jesus said, “And so you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my Church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. I will give you the keys to the kingdom of heaven.

Donald Hartley
I wouldn’t debate on the radio either if I knew I had to be accountable for the accusations I make?

Skip Let us look at that scripture.

Donald Hartley Skip, Dave Hunt? Really? What did you do, just google this? (Skip had posted an anti-Catholic video from Dave Hunt.  A well know anti-Catholic who has been disproved)

Skip shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

20 Then charged he his disciples that they should tell no man that he was Jesus the Christ.

21 From that time forth began Jesus to shew unto his disciples, how that he must go unto Jerusalem, and suffer many things of the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and be raised again the third day.

22 Then Peter took him, and began to rebuke him, saying, Be it far from thee, Lord: this shall not be unto thee.

23 But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men.

Skip Seems you are saying God built his church on Satan.

Skip  “for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men.” And that is the Catholic church

Donald Hartley Skip, the actual verse reads, “”Then he strictly ordered his disciples to tell no one that he was the Messiah”, Jesus says the same thing in Matthew 17:9, what does Jesus say? “Until the Son of Man has been raised from the dead.”

Donald Hartley St . Peter was thinking as a man would and not God, it was all about going to Jerusalem! Consider Luke 22:31, “Simon, Simon, behold Satan has demanded to sift all of you like wheat, but I have prayed that your own faith may not fail; and once you have turned back, you must strengthen your brothers”. Skip, this is exactly what happens. I consider it very important that if Jesus prays for somebody, that is huge!
about an hour ago ·

Skip  No, I am sorry but that is not what is says. You can take that translation that is not accepted by the christian world, fact is it is not accurate.

Donald Hartley It most certainly does, Skip, you must have a very faulty bible?

Skip You’re Not in the Driver’s Seat

21-22 Then Jesus made it clear to his disciples that it was now necessary for him to go to Jerusalem, submit to an ordeal of suffering at the hands of the religious leaders, be killed, and then on the third day be raised up alive. Peter took him in hand, protesting, “Impossible, Master! That can never be!”

23 But Jesus didn’t swerve. “Peter, get out of my way. Satan, get lost. You have no idea how God works.”
about an hour ago · Like

Skip Waters Jesus Predicts His Death

21 From that time on Jesus began to explain to his disciples that he must go to Jerusalem and suffer many things at the hands of the elders, the chief priests and the teachers of the law, and that he must be killed and on the third day be raised to life.

22 Peter took him aside and began to rebuke him. “Never, Lord!” he said. “This shall never happen to you!”

23 Jesus turned and said to Peter, “Get behind me, Satan! You are a stumbling block to me; you do not have in mind the concerns of God, but merely human concerns.”

Skip Seems you don’t know what you are talking about again

Donald Hartley Jesus said, “Get behind me, Satan! You are a hindrance to me; for you are not on the side of God, but of men.” This was all about Jerusalem.

Skip You better go say a few rosaries and get back to me.

Donald Hartley Skip, your making accusations and not reading the responses, I am more than answering your attacks, your not listening but copying and pasting.  Concerning the Rosary, gladly, and I will remember!

Skip  No, it was about Peter. Peter was in error then and many times in the bible. In fact not until Peter was filled with the Holy Spirit when he was babtized in the Holy spriit did he lose his silly thoughts and his trying to draw attention to himself.

Skip These are not attacks, they are facts. You have been taught lies, it is hard for you to face the truth.

Donald Hartley Actually, Jesus said what Jesus said: St . Peter was thinking as a man would and not God, it was all about going to Jerusalem! Consider Luke 22:31, “Simon, Simon, behold Satan has demanded to sift all of you like wheat, but I have prayed that your own faith may not fail; and once you have turned back, you must strengthen your brothers”. Skip, this is exactly what happens. I consider it very important that if Jesus prays for somebody, that is huge!

Skip The truth is the truth no matter if you believe it or not. A lie is a lie no matter if you and a whole lot of other people believe it to be the truth.

Skip Jesus Foretells His Death and Resurrection

21 From that time Jesus began to show his disciples that he must go to Jerusalem and suffer many things from the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and on the third day be raised. 22 And Peter took him and began to rebuke him, saying, “God forbid, Lord! This shall never happen to you.” 23 But he turned and said to Peter, “Get behind me, Satan! You are a hindrance[e] to me; for you are not on the side of God, but of men.”

Donald Hartley What are you trying to say Skip, Catholics certainly recognize that it was Jerusalem that Jesus was going to, and nobody is disputing the Holy Spirit coming upon the Apostles and the Church on Pentecost. Those are not lies nor are we calling them lies. It is absurd that you would say that.

Donald Hartley Skip, your making your own punching bag so you can kick it, but that is not the Catholic Church.

Skip Not a word about Jerusalem, he was talking directly to Peter and Peters lack of knowledge. Of course if ole Peter would of just read the old testement he would of known what was going to happen, that is if he would of been able to see it.

Donald Hartley  Skip, just looking back, you yourself quote scripture saying that it was infact concerning Jerusalem that Peter resisted and Jesus calls Peter “Satan”! Plus your forgetting John 21:15-19, or is this not in your new bible?

Donald Hartley St. Peter did come around to see it, he would be crucified upside down for it.

Skip I thought you said that was the scripture where the catholics say their chruch came from? The “rock” was the fact that Jesus was the Christ. Not SImon.

Skip He also denied Christ three times.

Donald Hartley Matthew 16:18 Jesus changes Simon, Son of Bar-Jona to “Kepa“, rock
about an hour ago ·

Donald Hartley Jesus gives the keys to Peter at the Ascension of Jesus, that is the birth of the Papacy.

Donald Hartley Skip, we know that Peter denied Jesus Three times, that is why Jesus asked him three times if he loved Jesus.

Donald Hartley What was Jesus response to Peter? FEED MY SHEEP! What is the responsibility of the sheep? To follow after the voice of the shephard!

Donald Hartley Your attack on Peter does not take Peter out of his foundation Skip.

Donald Hartley 16:17 Jesus said to him in reply, “Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah. For flesh and blood * has not revealed this to you, but my heavenly Father. 16:18 And so I say to you, you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church, * and the gates of the netherworld shall not prevail against it.
16:19 I will give you the keys to the kingdom of heaven. * Whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven; and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.”

YOU are blessed.
YOU did not receive this knowledge by flesh and blood (your own efforts)
My Father has revealed this to YOU.
YOU are the Rock.
YOU will be given the keys to the kingdom of heaven.
What YOU bind on earth will be bound in heaven.
What YOU loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.

Jesus, seven times, emphasized that Peter is the subject that connects the whole discourse together. Not only that but, one by one, ratifies the doctrines that define the Catholic Papacy.

By saying YOU are blessed, He ascribes that Peter’s office is set apart with a special blessing. By saying that Peter received knowledge directly from God, not men, He validates the Divine inspiration of the office. By calling Peter the Rock upon which He would build, He declares Peter the earthly cornerstone of the Church. By giving Him the keys, He declared that God’s plan of salvation must necessarily pass through His Catholic Church. Finally, by giving Peter the power to bind and loose on HIS behalf, Jesus declares the infallible teaching authority of the Church.

How anyone could read Matthew 16 and deny the authority of the Catholic Church is impossible for me to imagine.

For the first 1500 years of the Church, no one disputed that Peter was the Rock.

Caroline  @Skip - How much do you get paid to preach lies at your ” church ” , PREACHER ???

Caroline I can see you are your own PREACHER ???

Skip  I want you to know, brothers and sisters, that the gospel I preached is not of human origin. 12I did not receive it from any man, nor was I taught it; rather, I received it by revelation from Jesus Christ.

Donald Hartley Quoting St Paul gets you no where here Skip, in fact what does St. Paul do after his conversion? He is lead into Damascus blind until a Catholic Priest finds him (Ananias) and is baptized. The scales fell from his eyes just like I hope they will yours some day!
35 minutes ago · Like · 1

Donald Hartley St. Paul then defends his right as an apostle, he does not go and find his own denomination, but he joins in the Catholic Church. He played significantly at the Council of Jerusalem in 49 A.D.
33 minutes ago · Like

Margie  Here is the list of Popes all the way back to Peter, the first Pope, unbroken line of succession , this link is from Britannica….its History, the First 32 Popes were brutally martyred for the faith…..are you sure they are frauds Skip? You better think again.

Margie  http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/441722/papacy/275551/List-of-popes-and-antipopes
papacy (Roman Catholicism) : List of popes and antipopes
www.britannica.com
The office and jurisdiction of the bishop of Rome, the pope (Latin: papa, from G…See More

Donald Hartley St. Clement was thrown into the sea with an anchor tied around his neck. The Holy Spirit was with St. Clement. He actually wrote two letters to the Corinthians…

Margie  So Skip, please show me where your Pope, Dave Hunt falls in this Apostolic line

Margie  Yes, Donald, he was the fourth Pope, Sts. Cyril and Methodius recovered his body from the sea. I was at the 3rd Century Basilica where his remains are.

Donald Hartley I asked Skip to provide anyone in his church a representative anywhere, he could not do it.

Donald Hartley Skip, we do not separate Jesus Christ from his Church! Debating the truth, defending the truth is what we are instructed to do when it is necessary to do so! St. Jude said, “I now feel a need to write to encourage you to contend for the faith that was once for all handed down to the holy ones.” Skip, the faith that was handed on through the holy ones is the Catholic Church. It can’t be any more clear than this.

Catholics on Facebook have been having Anti-Catholics like John J Farina and Skip running around trying to get Catholics to abandon the Catholic Faith.  What happens when you respond with the truth.  They have no place to run.  It is important that we do “contend for the faith” when we are challenged.  This was a small taste but it provides an opportunity.

My encouragement is to remain faithful to the Catholic Church because it is the one true Church that Jesus personally founded.  Notice how silent Skip became in this debate? Revelation 8:3-6 states, “Another angel came and stood at the altar, holding a gold censer. He was given a great quantity of incense to offer, along with the prayers of all the holy ones, on the gold altar that was before the throne. The smoke of the incense along with the prayers of the holy ones went up before God from the hand of the angel. Then the angel took the censer, filled it with burning coals from the altar, and hurled it down to the earth. There were peals of thunder, rumblings, flashes of lightning, and an earthquake”! Just as Isaiah was cleansed with an ember (Isaiah 6:5-7) so is the Catholic Church through the prayer of the Saints. This video I dedicate for Skip and John J Farina!


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*Best of DTB #174* Alleged idolatry show notes

Posted by John Benko - April 21st, 2012



Alleged Idolatry


Exodus 20:16 Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbor.

These show notes correspond to this blog talk radio show
Opening audio clip.

The show notes to this debate are at http://tinyurl.com/7x7punu. Email as at email@deepertruthblog.com with comments or questions.
In the previous 6 debates with George Lujack, we have held our show notes close to the vest until broadcast time.

However, for this debate, we are putting all our cards on the table well in advance.. All materials were published days before this debate and even made available to our opponent himself. In short, we are telling George exactly where we are going to run and daring him try to counter it.

Since day 1, he has unabashedly claimed that the Catholic Church worships and idolizes Mary as a goddess. Those are not my words, they are his. The assertion is absurd and, in making it, he reduces his own credibility to zero and appears much more a desperate, irrational polemicist than a serious debater. In short, George is breaking the commandment of God by bearing false witness against his Catholic neighbors. It really is just that simple.

I will come right out and say openly that it is my view that George doesn’t believe this foolish nonsense any more than I do and that he probably understands that no Catholic will ever really take him seriously as long as he spouts such mush.

On the chance that George really does believe that Catholics worship Mary and the Saints, the Pope, Statues and Leprechauns as assorted Idols and gods and goddesses, he will be afforded every generous opportunity to prove it. He will also be pressed hard to put up or shut up on this ridiculous charge.

So, here and now, I will not set any burden of proof to be met, I will only explain in detail the bar George has set for himself, with his own words, and then I will sip coffee while his own nutty polemic comes crashing down on his own head.

Remember, I will do nothing here but use George’s own ridiculous assertions against him. That he is hoisted by his own petard, don’t blame me.

First, we will start with a vocabulary lesson, starting with the word worship.

wor·ship

[wur-ship] Show IPA noun, verb, wor·shiped, wor·ship·ing or ( especially British ) wor·shipped, wor·ship·ping.

noun
1.
reverent honor and homage paid to God or a sacred personage, or to any object regarded as sacred.
2.
formal or ceremonious rendering of such honor and homage: They attended worship this morning.
3.
adoring reverence or regard: excessive worship of business success.
4.
the object of adoring reverence or regard.
5.
( initial capital letter ) British . a title of honor used in addressing or mentioning certain magistrates and others of high rank or station (usually preceded by Your, His, or Her ).

When I speak of Worship, I am holding to the first and second definitions because they are literal and I am not British. Catholics hold this worship as due God alone. George, therefore, must prove that Catholics view Mary as Divine, since He has already claimed that.

The British use, often extracted from the Catholic encyclopedia, is of no value here because I speak American English and so does George, referring to a Judge as your honor, not your worship as our British counterparts do. Attempting to juxtapose British English on me would be dishonest to the extreme. I hope he doesn’t even try it.

Secondly, Idol.

i·dol

[ahyd-l] Show IPA

noun

1.
an image or other material object representing a deity to which religious worship is addressed.
2.
Bible .
a.
an image of a deity other than God.
b.
the deity itself.
3.
any person or thing regarded with blind admiration, adoration, or devotion: Madame Curie had been her childhood idol.
4.
a mere image or semblance of something, visible but without substance, as a phantom.
5.
a figment of the mind; fantasy.

Once again, George has already shown his hand. Therefore, he must prove that Catholics view Mary as a material Diety, worthy of worship. Not a pure human. He must prove that we hold her to be a goddess.

Thirdly, goddess.

god·dess

[god-is] Show IPA

noun
1.
a female god or deity.
2.
a woman of extraordinary beauty and charm.
3.
a greatly admired or adored woman.

Since definitions 2 and 3 are of slang and hyperbolic use, George must prove definition #1. A LITERAL female god.

If George can prove that we hold Mary to be a Divine being, possessing the attributes of Divinity, he wins. To do this, he must show that Catholics hold her to be eternal, omniscient, omnipresent and omnipotent. That means she is uncreated and has no limits to her knowledge, presence and power.

Also, since the Bible itself shows that worship requires a sacrifice, please show where Catholics offer Sacrifices to Mary. One of the proof-texts he will obviously use is Jeremiah 44, referring to the cult of Ishtar, the so-called Queen of Heaven. This is wonderful. I look forward, with great eagerness, for George to demonstrate how Catholics gather wood for fires, offering cake and drink libation sacrifices to Mary. As if!

Produce one Encyclical, Council document or verse from the catechism that shows that, as a Catholic, I am to Adore and Worship Mary as a Divine being, that I am to offer sacrifices to her and raise her to equality with God.

Do all this, or concede the argument up front.

Since George has already stated that Catholics have adored, idolitrized and worshiped Mary as a goddess, he cannot even assert unintentional worship, as if that were possible.

We opened this show with audio of clips of George’s own words and the show notes begin with a screenshot of George claiming in facebook that he can prove Catholics make Mary a goddess.. By his own words he is condemned. He has painted himself into this corner and was very foolish to do so.

Accusing Catholics of worshiping Mary and the Saints is among the ugliest slander and vitriolic, gutter polemics. It is usually offered in 2 equally absurd variations-

  1. That Catholics somehow unintentionally or unknowingly worship Mary, the saints etc.
  2. That Catholics openly consent to the worship of Mary, the saints etc., then lie about doing so.

Both are equally absurd. The first is impossible and illogical, as worship requires assent to Divinity. It is beyond the worst perversion of the definition of worship to suggest that it is something that can occur without the full consent of the mind, heart, body and soul. In short, version number one is flat-out impossible. The second version is even worse because it accuses Catholics, falsely, of two mortal sins- Idolatry and false witness.

At least the first can be excused as ignorance.

George openly accuses Catholics of elevating Mary and the saints to the level of gods. In doing so, he mortally wounds any possible chance of meeting his own burden of proof.

By the standard George has set, he must prove that Catholics;

  1. Fully consent, mind, body, heart and soul, to the elevation of Mary and other saints to the level of diety.
  2. Fully consent to the deception of said worship

Not only are both of these assertion ludicrous, they are even less ludicrous than the claim that he can prove them true. In other words, George is claiming he can prove what Catholics think and that they all lie about thinking it!

George would have to be mentally unstable to truly believe he can demonstrate this, so I have to assume he is just blinded by irrational, anti-catholic hate. No other explanation makes sense.

In view of this, George cannot offer anything in his opening statement- or any of his arguments- that will be even remotely credible….

….with the possible exception of an apology for breaking one of the ten commandments and smearing his neighbors.

Briefly, I’ll address the points George will surely make in the desperate attempt to buttress this disgusting slander. He will start by accusing us of violating the second commandment (which is actually part of the first) in making unto ourselves graven images of worship. As if! Remember that the Israelites consented to the worship of the golden calf and other false gods.

God’s word from Exodus 32;


8 They have turned aside quickly out of the way that I commanded them. They have made for themselves a golden calf and have worshiped it and sacrificed to it and said, ‘These are your gods, O Israel, who brought you up out of the land of Egypt!’”

I have a small statuette I won, of the Holy family. I can assure you that it is made of plaster and should I be unfortunate enough to drop it, it will probably break. I have never once prostrated myself before it, nor have I offered sacrifices to it. It is no more a god to me than the statues of angels Moses made, at God’s command, in the Temple and on the Ark of the Covenant. It does not possess any of the attributes of humanity much less divinity.

Next, he will assert that prayer is worship. Hogwash. To pray means to ask, nothing more. nowhere in the Bible is prayer called worship. This is indefensible nonsense.

Quoting his own King James Bible, 1st Kings, chapter 2;

16 And now I ask one petition of thee, deny me not. And she said unto him, Say on.
17 And he said, Speak, I pray thee, unto Solomon the king, (for he will not say thee nay,) that he give me Abishag the Shunammite to wife.
18 And Bathsheba said, Well; I will speak for thee unto the king.
19 Bathsheba therefore went unto king Solomon, to speak unto him for Adonijah. And the king rose up to meet her, and bowed himself unto her, and sat down on his throne, and caused a seat to be set for the king’s mother; and
she sat on his right hand.
20 Then she said, I desire one small petition of thee; I pray thee, say me not nay. And the king said unto her, Ask on, my mother: for I will not say thee nay.

In this instance, prayer is not called worship. Nor is prayer called worship in any of the 188 instances of the word worship in the King James Bible.

Not only do Adonijah and Bathsheba both use the word pray as what it means- to petition- but the King- Solomon- actually gives a bow of respect to his mother, the Queen Mother and places her on a throne to his right.

Luke chapter 1 tells us that Jesus Christ is the fulfillment of the Davidic Kingdom. This makes Mary the Queen Mother, not as a goddess, but as her rightful position in the King’s court. To deny this is to deny scripture.

Following this, George will doubtless assert that the Angels and Saints cannot hear our prayers. This, once again, is a direct contradiction to Scripture. In the book of Revelation we see both Angels and Saints receiving our prayers and passing them on to God…. Angels in chapter 8, Saints in chapter 5.

I am positive George will quote Colossians 2 regarding the worship of angels, trying to make a hallow juxtaposition against Catholics. He will offer nothing but implication linking this to Catholics.

Yet, if you are still convinced that those in heaven cannot hear petitions, consider this exchange straight from the 16th chapter of Luke’s gospel;

23And in hades lifting up his eyes, being in torments, he sees Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. 24And he crying out said, Father Abraham, have compassion on me, and send Lazarus that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, for I am suffering in this flame. 25But Abraham said, Child, recollect that *thou* hast fully received thy good things in thy lifetime, and likewise Lazarus evil things. But now he is comforted here, and *thou* art in suffering.

The accusation that Catholics worship Mary, or anyone else but God Almighty is not merely false but the worst kind of polemic garbage and bile. To even attempt to make it plausible requires George and those of like mind to invent a definition of worship wholly alien to the Bible.

  1. Prove to me that you worship Christ. List for me all the things one must believe about the person of Jesus to properly be called a worshiper of Him. Then, using the same standard, prove that I am a worshiper of Mary.
  2. Each time I, as a Catholic, pray the “Hail Mary”, I echo the words of Scripture “Blessed are you among women”. Here, I expressly assent to her humanity and that she is blessed no further than that. Further, I ask her to pray for me. If I saw Mary as a goddess, please explain why I would call her human and ask her to pray for me.
  3. George, you claim that prayer equals worship, yet not one of the 188 appearances of the word worship in the King James Bible say such a thing. In fact, the word pray appears twice in 1st Kings Chapter 2 in a way expressly showing non-worshipful petition. How is it that you can insist on a definition of worship that has no Biblical support whatsoever?
  4. Revelation 11:19 to 12:17 shows a woman who is called the Ark of the Covenant, who is in heaven, who has a physical body, who has a crown on her head, showing queen-ship, who gave birth to the child called up to God’s throne who is to rule all nations with a rod of iron, who is the mother of all Christians. This is not what I say, this is what the Bible says. Who else could this woman possibly be other than Mary?
  5. The Queen Mother (1 Kings 15:13, 2 Chronicles 15:16, Jeremiah 13:18, 22:10, 29:2 ) was the mother of the King in the davidic kingdom. Luke 1:32 tells us that Jesus fulfills the throne of the Kingdom of David. Under this Kingdom, Mary IS the Queen Mother. How can you seriously deny this?



Here are some points that I think are likely to be raised during the course of this debate. The argument will be in BLUE with my Response in GOLD.

Argument: If Catholics do not worship Mary, why do they call her Theotokos- the Mother of God? Is this not putting her above God?

Answer: Not at all. To call Mary the Mother of God is only to confirm what Scripture says about her. Elizabeth, in Luke 1 says what is it to me that the Mother of My Lord should come to me. ‘My Lord’ is translated from the Greek Kyrios which is equivalent to the Hebrew Adonai, a name used for God. To call Mary the Mother of God, is simply confirming the Biblical reality that is the Incarnation.
It is a simple logical syllogism. Jesus is God, Mary is His Mother, therefore, Mary is the Mother of God.

Argument: Catholics call Mary a co-redemtrix and co-mediatrix. The Bible clearly says that there is only one mediator between God and man. Are you not elevating Mary to the level of God?

Answer: You are comparing apples to oranges. A Redeemer and a co-redemptrix are two totally different things. Likewise, a co-mediatrix and a mediator between God and Man are not even close to the same thing.

The key word is ‘co’ which means ‘with’, not ‘equal’. In calling Mary a co-redemtrix and co-mediatrix, the Catholic church is simply affirming a fundamental reality- that Mary co-operated with the plan of redemption by bring Jesus to us.

Argument: Catholics claim that Mary has appeared all over the world. At Fatima, Catholics claim that Mary said: The soul which recommends itself to Me by the recitation of the Rosary, shall not perish. Isn’t this elevating Mary to a level of Savior?

Answer: First of all, no Catholic is bound to believing in private revelations. However, Jesus did say that there would be signs by which many would believe and the documented miraculous events at places like Lourdes and Fatima are undeniable. At the heart of Mary’s statement- properly context-ed, is one of the most fundamental divisions between Catholics and Protestants, the notion of intercessory prayer. Yet, Mary never claims to be a Savior, she claims to be an Advocate. In the Rosary are the Apostles Creed and the Our Father as well as the Hail Mary. Mary’s entire message at Fatima is one of prayer, fasting and penance and returning to her Son. Mary is offering her assistance in leading souls to her son. Her messages at these events always point to Jesus. True, one may reject these events as inauthentic if they so chose but to call them worship is quite a stretch. 

Argument: Doesn’t the Bible warn against believing signs and wonders?
Revelation 13:  11: Then I saw another beast which rose out of the earth; it had two horns like a lamb and it spoke like a dragon.

12: It exercises all the authority of the first beast in its presence, and makes the earth and its
 inhabitants worship the first beast, whose mortal wound was healed. 
13: It works great signs, even making fire come down from heaven to earth in the sight of men;

14: and by the signs which it is allowed to work in the presence of the beast, it deceives those who dwell on earth, bidding them make an image for the beast which was wounded by the sword and yet lived;

Answer: Signs and wonders are not at all what is being condemned here, unbelief and apostasy are what is being condemned.

Let’s take the quotes one by one. The quote in Matthew 16 did not mean Jesus didn’t perform any signs  in the Gospels, we know better than that. In fact, just 5 verses later, Jesus reminds the disciples of the miracle of the fish and loaves. Jesus did not condemn the signs themselves, he condemned the evil and adulterous pharisees who sought to put him to the test because of their lack of belief.

In 2 Corinthians, we are warned that Satan disguises himself as a being of light. There would be no need for him to do this if it were not for the fact that actual beings of light have appeared to people. 

It is the same with the proof text from Revelation 13 . When the anti-christ brings fire down from heaven, he is merely doing a cheap imitation of what Elijah did in 2 Kings.

It is nonsense to suggest that the Bible tells us to unilaterally reject all miracles. Both the Prophet Joel and Peter told us that in the last days young men would see visions and old men would dream dreams. The key is knowing how to discern.

1 John 4 
1 Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world. 2 By this you know the Spirit of God : every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God ; 3 and every spirit that does not confess Jesus is not from God ; this is the spirit of the antichrist
It may well be noted that every approved apparition of Mary passes this Biblical test.

Often used as a gotcha claim that Catholics worship Mary, anti-catholics sometimes quote the catholic Encyclopedia using the British use of the word worship. Even when they do so, the full context proves them wrong. Also, isn’t it ironic that proponents of the King James Bible would try and impose the Saxon dialect on us?

The word worship (Saxon weorthscipe, “honour”; from worth, meaning “value”, “dignity”, “price”, and the termination, ship; Latin cultus) in its most general sense is homage paid to a person or a thing. In this sense we may speak of hero-worship, worship of the emperor, of demons, of the angels, even of relics, and especially of the Cross. This article will deal with Christian worship according to the following definition: homage paid to God, to Jesus Christ, to His saints, to the beings or even to the objects which have a special relation to God.
There are several degrees of this worship:
  • if it is addressed directly to God, it is superior, absolute, supreme worship, or worship of adoration, or, according to the consecrated theological term, a worship of latria. This sovereign worship is due to God alone; addressed to a creature it would become idolatry.
  • When worship is addressed only indirectly to God, that is, when its object is the veneration of martyrs, of angels, or of saints, it is a subordinate worship dependent on the first, and relative, in so far as it honours the creatures of God for their peculiar relations with Him; it is designated by theologians as the worship of dulia, a term denoting servitude, and implying, when used to signify our worship of distinguished servants of God, that their service to Him is their title to our veneration (cf. Chollet, loc. cit., col. 2407, and Bouquillon, Tractatus de virtute religionis, I, Bruges, 1880, 22 sq.).
  • As the Blessed Virgin has a separate and absolutely supereminent rank among the saints, the worship paid to her is called hyperdulia (for the meaning and history of these terms see Suicer, Thesaurus ecclesiasticus, 1728).


The show notes to this debate are at http://tinyurl.com/7x7punu. Email as at email@deepertruthblog.com with comments or questions.

At the end of this debate, there is no change from the beginning. The basic assertion, that Catholics worship or idolatrize Mary, Angels, saints is unsupported and unsupportable. Nothing more need be said on the matter. If George had merely stated that prayer and devotion to Mary and the Saints constituted material worship, or confined his line of attack to the appropriateness of icons or prayers, or even Mary’s rightful place in the plan of salvation, we would have much to discuss. He would have still lost, but t would have been a contest.

However, when George actually accuses me of fashioning Mary into a goddess, I can truly do nothing but roll my eyes and go on to the next topic. This is one debate our opponent simply made too easy for us, by grossly overreaching on his assertion.

This accusation is not merely false but is nothing more than bitter, hyper-polemic drivel. The Mary goddess canard is the invention of rabid anti-Catholics with over-active imaginations and too much time on their hands. There has never been any evidence produced whatsoever to support such idiot, paranoid nonsense.

George is too obsessed with paganism, druidism and babylonianism, none of which have anything to do with Catholicism whatsoever. George’s entire case is a supposition, inside a juxtaposition, wrapped around a paranoid, conspiratorial fabrication.

As a Catholic, I could not give two flips if the Babylonians had a goddess, two goddesses or two legions of goddesses and 47 hobgoblins with snakes in their hair. That has squat to do with me and his lame assertions to the contrary are so much hyperventilated smoke. In short, if George truly believes that I worship Mary as a goddess then what can I say but that I feel sorry for him?

This is exactly the kind of irrational lack of charity that causes divisions rather than heal them because George wants to believe the lie…he needs to believe the lie. It is not enough that he believe that Catholics are wrong, he needs to believe they are evil and that is really a shame.

It is that irrational hatred that made this debate so easy because it caused George to lose his center and strike out irrationally.

The accusation that Catholics worship Mary is false, irrational polemics based in nothing but hate. It is an anti-catholic invention totally lacking in any substance or logic and George should be ashamed of himself for suggesting something so asinine. As far as debate goes, I hope George has learned a valuable lesson. He spent all his credibility capital right here by claiming he could prove about me what no man could possibly prove about another… what I believe.

I hope he will be more rational going forward, he really went off the reservation this time.


Opening Statement: ‘Alleged’ Idolatry of the Catholic Church 04/26/2012 by George Lujack Alleged idolatry of the Catholic Church? Alleged? Really? Saying that there is alleged adultery in the Catholic Church is like saying there is alleged prostitution going on in a brothel. Idolatry is what the Catholic Church is all about. Idolatry is what keeps Catholics faithful to their church, when all logic and reason should alert them to flee from this unbiblical and corrupt organization. Idolatry of the Catholic Church would include the idolatrous history of the Catholic Church (that would include actual history and false revisionist history), idolatry of the grand Cathedrals they build, and of course idolatry of their art and graven images that the Catholic Church makes, honors, reveres, adores and worships. Whether they realize it or not, practicing Catholics are idolaters in one form or another. Catholics are idolaters if they own and revere statues of Christ, Mary, saints or any other figure that they pray through or to. Catholics worship false gods if they pray to or attribute powers to saints – powers that are only manifested by God. Therefore, when Catholics pray before a statue of Christ, Mary, or pray the rosary, or bow before images of other dead Christian saints, and expect Mary or these other dead saints to answer their prayers, or intercede on their behalf before God, these Catholics are breaking the 1st and 2nd Commandments simultaneously. They are attributing powers reserved for God, prayer and answers to prayer, to dead saints. Therefore, Catholics are breaking God’s Command to not have other gods, as ONLY He is God. Catholics also disobey God by having graven images of God, Mary and of other saints that they worship as demigods. Catholics that use graven images as a vehicle or medium to ‘better’ communicate with God, should heed the warning given by God for not listening to Him or His commandments, in this case the commandment forbidding the use of graven images… PROVERBS 28:9: He that turns away his ear from hearing the law, even his prayer shall be abomination. Catholics like to re-define what worship is, in order to justify having their graven image statues, bowing before them and serving them. In Acts chapter 10, we see the righteous Roman centurion Cornelius merely bowing before Peter, and Scripture defines this “falling down to his feet” bowing before Peter as an act of worship. ACTS 10:25-26: As Peter was coming in, Cornelius met him and fell down at his feet and worshiped him. But Peter lifted him up, saying, “Stand up; I myself am also a man.” How is it then that Catholics can say with a straight face that when they have and maintain graven images, bow before these graven images and pray to and/or through theses graven images, that they are not engaged in worshiping graven images and false demigods? Scripture defined Cornelius for falling at his feet before Peter as – an act of worship. Peter admonished Cornelius and told him not to do such a thing, for he only was a man. Can you imagine what Peter would say if he saw Catholics throughout the centuries making, bowing and praying before statues made of Him? What would Peter say if he could speak today to Catholics who make statues of him and pray to him through those statues? I assure you, If Peter saw such things he would say to Catholics today as he once said to Cornelius, “Stand up; I myself am also a man.” Peter would also tell Catholics to not pray to him, for he is a man and as such, cannot hear nor answer prayer. Only God should be prayed to and only God can hear and answer prayer. The Catholic 10-Commandments are not the same 10-Commandments of Judaism and Christianity. They have altered the word of God, the 10-Commandments written with the finger of God, and have deleted the 2nd Commandment forbidding graven images. The 2nd command was obvious deleted from the 10-Commandments by Catholicism, so that they could break the 2nd commandment. In order to keep the Commandments numbered at ten, they split the 10th Commandment against coveting, into the 9th and 10th commandments, which they list as coveting a neighbor’s wife as the 9th Commandment and coveting a neighbor’s property as the 10th Commandment. EXODUS 20:4-5: You shall not make for yourself a carved image—any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; you shall not bow down to them nor serve them. EXODUS 20:23: You shall not make anything to be with Me—gods of silver or gods of gold you shall not make for yourselves. Since it is IMPOSSIBLE for man to make an actual god, the commandment against making gods refers to making a representative or graven image of God – used to worship God, or the making of false gods, gods that are created by man. Making a representative of God was the justification the Hebrews used after their Exodus from Egypt. Many of the Hebrews that made the golden calf, knew it was wrong to do so, and they had not yet been given the 10-Commandments. The Hebrews wanted a god to go before them, just as Catholics want their graven idols today to go before them, to be with them and comfort them. Exodus 20:4 proclaims that it is not merely a sin to bow down to an idol, it is a sin to make one, or own one, or worship in a church before one. God is a jealous God, and He will not share His glory or allow images and worship to be conducted through the work of craftsmen. Cursed is the man who makes a graven or molten image and sets it up, such as they do throughout the Catholic Churches (Deuteronomy 27:15). Catholics who make, own, pray before, serve, honor and worship graven images are often in denial that they are doing anything wrong. Unfortunately, they often cede their logical mind and obedience to God and lay it at the alter of their Catholic Church, falsely believing that the Catholic Church is the authority on such matters, and not the everlasting word of God. Closing Statement It is in truth and spirit that we should worship and honor God. God is the author of truth and Scripture is His manual. Man does not get to choose and worship God in a manner of his choosing. God is sovereign and it is He who commands us how we should worship Him. Prayer is defined as: A solemn request, request for help, reverent petition, expression of thanks made to God, a god, or another object of worship When Catholics pray to Mary, or the saints, they give them an attribute that belongs to God and they make Mary into a goddess and the saints demigods. The Catholic Church, since it’s foundation, had absolutely no intention of worshiping God in spirit and in truth, but instead through idolatry and deception, false doctrines and Babylonian tradition. God does not want, nor will He accept worship through the use of graven images, nor through the false doctrines of the Catholic Church that have promulgated the making and wide distribution of statues. God does not permit the worship of saints that have been set up through the Catholic Church, in the tradition of paganism’s polytheism, in the role of tin demigods. Mary and all the Christian saints are dead in their graves, awaiting their resurrection upon the return of Christ, as plainly stated in 1 Corinthians 15:53. The dead will rise from their graves to be with the Lord at the last trumpet, something they cannot do if they are already with the Lord in heaven. The use of false-god graven image idols within the Catholic Church and by the Catholic faithful, has inevitably lead to alleged moving images and weeping and bleeding statues. God would never use a graven image to work a miracle through. Deceived Catholics believe in many of these false miracles and lying wonders attributed to these statues, as disobedience in breaking God’s 2nd Commandment can only bring forth bad fruit and unrighteousness. Further signs and lying wonders will usher in the wicked one, as Scripture foretells… 2 THESSALONIANS 2:9-12: Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and LYING WONDERS, And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

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